T3 Super 60 vs. T3/T4 turbo's

[peels2g]

i have done a lot of research on the t3 super 60 turbo because of the few that have used them on honda engines love them. I have a stock b18b that came in my 98 integra. I wanted to boost it with the idea of having a quick, reliable street car. I have already done the built Ls/Vtec, bigger turbo thing and loved how quick it was on the freeway but realized after having it a while that it would be better to have a turbo set up that spooled earlier into the rpm range.
The super 60 delivers full boost on a b18b around 3k rpms and has a respectable power range. From the dyno charts that I have seen at 10 psi the super 60 will makes roughly around 25 more foot lbs of torque than power and you don't have to rev the shit out of your motor which dramatically shortens a engines life span. The super 60 is supposed to be the ultimate street turbo.

Have any of you used a super 60 or know anyone who has? Your input would be greatly appreciated.

[DubstepDave]

I have a super60 on my Scirocco and absolutely love it. I see full boost at about 3200 RPM on my 2.0L 16v VW motor, your Honda should see it a little sooner because of the better flowing head.

This turbo will not make mountains of power, but it will make a lot of torque, and should push a little over 300whp at about 16psi on a Honda.

[CHRIFFIN]

T3/T4 50 trim with a .48 A/R

[DubstepDave]

Yes, also a quick spooling turbo. I don't think that a 50 trim t3/t4 makes much more power than a 60trim t3 though. Maybe 20-30whp at most, but it's negligible.

You can find good condition 60trims for a couple hundred bucks. And most are internally gated, making exhaust plumbing easier.

[CHRIFFIN]

^^ True that!!! just trying to help you out with some relevant information..

What about the "disco-potato" with price out of mind.

the GT28RS i believe.

[DubstepDave]

The GT28RS is an absolute hell of a turbo. If I had more money, that's what my car would have on it. Easily good for 350-380whp and ultra fast spool. One of the best turbos ever made, IMO.

[carfreak]

I would never go any smaller than a 57 trim on any honda motor. Thats just me though. I like the how it pulls up top... makes it for a lot funner ride. My dad has a gt28xxrs turbo on his d17 and its fun but only through like 2k-4k other than it feels not so fast in the top end. 57 trim FTW... hits like a freight train and doesnt stop pulling.... Im sure kyle (2fast4you) can testify how badass my turbo feels in the top end ;)

[zex_cool]

"super 60" is rare commodity! most ppl that claim they have it usually only have the regular 60 trim. turbonetics is the only one that makes them now, which makes it a shit turbo!

whats full boost for you 7psi or 20?? what a/r were you planing on the exhaust side? .63 or .48?

[DubstepDave]

16psi is what I see by 3200 RPM. When I crank it up to 21-22 I see full boost at about 3400.

And yeah, you are correct. Turbonetics is the only one making a super60 anymore. I have an old Garrett. I'm still not 100% sure if it's a super60 or just a 60trim. It's .63 a/r turbine and .60 a/r compressor.

[zex_cool]

i was thinking about peels2g..

if you go w anything that has a .63 a/r exhaust you will still have peak tq in the 5k rpm range.
if this is what you want, go with a log mani or a nice cheap cast one with whatever t3 based turbo that has a .48 a/r on the exhaust. and/or get a b16 tranny for the most "torque acceleration." but keep in mind, that will make you tractionless! there is a reason small turbos and FWD dont mix well. hah

[DubstepDave]

Yeah, my problem is traction. I get none until third gear, even at 10psi. VW's make a hell of a lot of torque, usually equal to or more than hp, so it's a huge problem for me. But I would much rather have it that way, and just modulate the throttle, than to be trying to pull out of a corner during an autocross run, and wait 4 seconds for boost to come on.

[peels2g]

You can modify a garrett 60 trim turbo and basically make it a super 60.

Zex, I was planing .63 a/r. I am using my old turbo kit and only wanted to change the turbo and nothing else. Before I was using a t3/t4 50 trim

[zex_cool]

like i said, your peak torque will still be around 5k with the .63a/r exhaust. want bottom end power? get a bigger motor! haha

[Rob]

I would say why limit yourself based on what cartridge you like more, the variety and housing options are endless out there. Just find some key values like when you want to start spooling, when you want full boost, max rpm at full boost (for each value find pressure ratio and lbs of air a minute) and plot them on a variety of compressor maps. Max power rpm at full boost should be in the middle efficiency island. Initial full boost should be near the surge line but not beyond it. I'm not remember where the spool should be, I'll brush up on it and edit my post.

EDIT;

Create these two points
- First hit full boost (again looking for lbs/air a minute and PR)
- Max engine rpm at full boost (same thing)
Plot these two points on various compressor maps. The first point should be as close to the surge line as possible which will create the best spool characteristics without choking down your motor. The second point should be as close to centered in the middle efficiency island as possible. Find a compressor map that fits these two points well and start from there when picking housings/modifications. If you give me the info for your build I can run the numbers for you. I would need displacement, desired full boost, max rpm, desired full boost rpm, as well as head design or even better estimated VE at each of those points.

[MDamiano]

You can modify a garrett 60 trim turbo and basically make it a super 60.

Zex, I was planing .63 a/r. I am using my old turbo kit and only wanted to change the turbo and nothing else. Before I was using a t3/t4 50 trim

Hi there,

i just wanted to point something out. the "50 trim" and the "super 60" spool exactly the same (when using the same a/r exhaust housing) they both utilize t3 exhaust housings. the turbine is what dictates spool, so using 2 different turbo's with the same turbine, will yield the same spool. the difference is the "50 trim" uses a t4 compressor housing, while the "super 60" uses the regular t3 compressor. the "50 trim" is going to have the exact same spool, just make about 100whp more at peak efficiency.

faster spool comes from the smaller a/r of the turbine.

[DubstepDave]

I am aware of that. But for my porposes, 250whp is plenty. In fact, a lot of times it's too much. I see that power at about 15psi, and I usually run the car at autocrosses on only 10psi, because otherwise I cannot put power down.

[peels2g]

Here is a dyno chart of a t3 super 60 .48 a/r. Im gunna have to go with that.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c356/Integriggy/dyno1.jpg

[MDamiano]

i am not all that familiar with hondas, but doesnt a b18b rev out to 7500? that turbo makes peak tq at 4800 and then is falling off ALREADY by 5000rpm! so what happens in the last 2500rpm? i am willing to bet that by redline, you will be back at 150ftlbs of tq. i guess that would be ok if you only drove your car from 3500-5500rpms....does the gearing of a b18b allow you to stay in that range when up-shifting?

that dyno chart above tells me that the compressor is entirely too small for the breathing capabilities of that motor. if tq is falling off like that, the motor is outflowing the turbo. (for a dyno plot reference, look at the "small turbo syndrome" that srt4's and 1.8t volkswagons have) seems like a waste of time and money to me. from everything i have seen a t3/t4 is a much better match for a honda engine. a t3/t4 50 or 57 trim with a .48 a/r exhaust will spool exactly the same as that....but have a large enough compressor to support enough air flow to keep the tq line, long and flat to the 7500rpm redline.

[peels2g]

i am not all that familiar with hondas, but doesnt a b18b rev out to 7500? that turbo makes peak tq at 4800 and then is falling off ALREADY by 5000rpm! so what happens in the last 2500rpm? i am willing to bet that by redline, you will be back at 150ftlbs of tq. i guess that would be ok if you only drove your car from 3500-5500rpms....does the gearing of a b18b allow you to stay in that range when up-shifting?

that dyno chart above tells me that the compressor is entirely too small for the breathing capabilities of that motor. if tq is falling off like that, the motor is outflowing the turbo. (for a dyno plot reference, look at the "small turbo syndrome" that srt4's and 1.8t volkswagons have) seems like a waste of time and money to me. from everything i have seen a t3/t4 is a much better match for a honda engine. a t3/t4 50 or 57 trim with a .48 a/r exhaust will spool exactly the same as that....but have a large enough compressor to support enough air flow to keep the tq line, long and flat to the 7500rpm redline.


Your right, The turbo can't keep up with the motor close to redline, but that is what I want. Im just looking for a fun street turbo that delivers quick power and torque. The ls motor redlines at 68 or 6900 rpms and I really don't want to have to take it there.

[MDamiano]

so with that setup you have all of the lag, and none of the top end power. doesnt make sense to me. a t3/t4 will make the same exact low end power and same exact spool. if you wanted a fast spooling turbo that makes no top end, might i suggest something like a t28? a t3 turbine is just too large if your looking for fast spool, and the most tq in low rpms. But i digress, it is your car my friend, so do as you please.

[peels2g]

so with that setup you have all of the lag, and none of the top end power. doesnt make sense to me. a t3/t4 will make the same exact low end power and same exact spool. if you wanted a fast spooling turbo that makes no top end, might i suggest something like a t28? a t3 turbine is just too large if your looking for fast spool, and the most tq in low rpms. But i digress, it is your car my friend, so do as you please.

I also want to keep the ac so thats why I was thinking of using a small turbo.. and the manifold is a drag mani.

[Dac]

Just get a 62-1!!

[MDamiano]

I also want to keep the ac so thats why I was thinking of using a small turbo.. and the manifold is a drag mani.

again, im not that versed with hondas, but the downpipe is going to be towards the a/c compressor is it not? (i am not familiar with the "drag manifold")

but again your talking about the exhaust housing (part the downpipe comes off of) that is exactly the same between a t3 turbo and a hybrid t3/t4. so if you can fit a t3 turbo in with your a/c, a t3/t4 will fit guaranteed.

this is all pretty rudimentary turbo stuff here.

and by the way, your deffinition of a "small turbo" and mine differ, a lot. a k03, or td04, t25, is a small frame turbo. t3's are considered medium frame turbos.

t2 turbos are small, t3's are medium, t4's are large. and then you have the t6 frames but those are more for industrial use. (of course we are talking exhaust housings here.)


i dont mean to offend, but i think you know what you want out of your setup, but your execution and reasoning behind it are poor.

[Tom]

http://tinyurl.com/6sehw7

[peels2g]

http://tinyurl.com/6sehw7

nice slick^ I think im just going to stick with the t3/t4 50 trim that I had before. For the Ac I know Im going to have to change the turbo mani.

[peels2g]

again, im not that versed with hondas, but the downpipe is going to be towards the a/c compressor is it not? (i am not familiar with the "drag manifold")

but again your talking about the exhaust housing (part the downpipe comes off of) that is exactly the same between a t3 turbo and a hybrid t3/t4. so if you can fit a t3 turbo in with your a/c, a t3/t4 will fit guaranteed.

this is all pretty rudimentary turbo stuff here.

and by the way, your deffinition of a "small turbo" and mine differ, a lot. a k03, or td04, t25, is a small frame turbo. t3's are considered medium frame turbos.

t2 turbos are small, t3's are medium, t4's are large. and then you have the t6 frames but those are more for industrial use. (of course we are talking exhaust housings here.)


i dont mean to offend, but i think you know what you want out of your setup, but your execution and reasoning behind it are poor.

I don't think its poor to see what others have done and make a thread asking for info. I have used the hybrid turbo set up and wanted to do the straight t3 to make more of a street friendly combination. Now realizing that the same turbo that I once used before would pretty much offer the same results only would carry the power ban till redline there is no need or sense in going with a straight t3 turbo.

I like torque and I like Hondas and since hondas offer anything but torque I was exploring ways to remedy that. Honestly, when you have a Fi car who cares right? Its gonna be fun and fast, thats all that matter to me.

[NoDestiny]

"super 60" is rare commodity! most ppl that claim they have it usually only have the regular 60 trim. turbonetics is the only one that makes them now, which makes it a shit turbo!

My super 60 on my minivan is a Turbonetics. I have no complaints about it. Full boost around 3-3.5K and has been very reliable, though I don't have many miles on it.